Curse

dancing gnome · Feb 15, 2011, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Balled targets are infrequent in general. I think 7 adrenaline for TMS is a tough sell for most encounters in PvE, especially since it's a tear-down skill, which should be more accessible IMO.

Agreed. You'd be surprised how often efficient and quick pulls in PvE don't result in balled targets... close enough together for a scythe anyways. The adrenaline cost is a bit high but Save Yourselves is 6 and people spam that enough, it just requires something like For Great Justice.

I don't see dervishes being the adrenaline machines that warriors, paragons and sins are but they have other tools at their disposal in addition to adrenaline, so the resource pressure shouldn't be too bad.

DiogoSilva · Feb 15, 2011, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Even against only one target, TMS+AoB will presumely give about 4 adrenaline. One extra attack (skill) and you have six. That can be done, it seems, in less than 4 seconds to keep "SY!" constantly. Paragons will still be the best because they have extra buffing options and SY fuel their energy, but dervishes might nonetheless get a buff at spamming SY.

Against 3 enemies, that will be, what, 12 adrenaline? (!!) That's crazy. And I don't know about you, but enemies ball pretty easy on nightfall/ eotn/ WiK. I don't see as many balled targets in prophecies, though, but hitting at least 2 is doable often enough.

Unblockable, 12 adrenaline, 120 self-heal, huge synergy with melee buffers, higher armor and burning for something like Reap impurities to follow. I can see scythes getting nerfed to only hit one target just because of that.

Edit: Anyone noticed how Lyssa's Haste is strategically similar to several skills from GW2, especially the guardian virtues? To use the second interrupt effectively, you have to sacrifice the passive effect bonus. It seems too strong of a skill, but you have to priotize which effects you want to take advantage of. Looks FUN.

jazilla · Feb 15, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Really, it's perfect. The Dervish and the Paragon were the last two classes released in GW1 and they are omitted for the time being in GW2 so they will get their time to shine in GW1. Hopefully, it will stay this way until they shut down the servers. Somewhere in this thread someone said that this is going live this week for the Dervishes. I know it will be a while for the Paragon build if it ever happens.

I also remember KJ saying in a thread that was deleted some months ago that they were nerfing Shadow Form in this Dervish Update. Just an FYI: He called the Flash Enchantments, and Adrenaline based Scythe skills in the same post.

Racthoh · Feb 15, 2011, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Unless dervish enchantments are all on a less than 10 second cooldown, or some skills allows them to recharge faster, I don't see this update doing anything interesting for Dervishes. I'm not sure why people are discussing the adrenaline necessary to use Twin Moon Sweep when the bigger issue is having an enchantment (a dervish enchantment, mind you) constantly available to actually use it.

Whatever that Mysticism change is it better not touch my orders hero.

Xenomortis · Feb 15, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

If 90% skills are being changed, there's a decent chance that pretty much every current derv build is going to die.
Not all enchantments would need to be fast recharging. But for it to be really reliable you would need a few decent ones with a quick cooldown.

Killed u man · Feb 15, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

People should start looking at synergies rather than the skills themselves. I'm fairly convinced that none of the stuff will be broken on it's own. (Flash enchantments, perma avatar, all seem fine if balanced by numbers)

However, how will a flash enchantmen interract with other profession?

What will stop a warrrior from pumping shit down with a scythe and adrenline buffs? (Battle Rage + twin moon + whilring attack)

I think the most imbalanced builds (and they will exist) will come not from stuff people are discussing now, but from the stuff people aren't discussing. Unseen/forgotten synergies.

A flash enchantment is a completely new mechanic, how will it interract with "strange" skills: insta cast glyphs? Stances? etc.

AndrewSX · Feb 15, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I don't see the link between flash ench and glyphs, but we have to consider some things:
1-We're discussing about a very little part of the update. We don't know how works new misticism, the real range of damage and all the other 90%+ of altered skills.
2-Would this update to derv skills buff only the derv itself, or we'll still see sins,wars and(why not?) rangers using scythes, even better than a primary derv as now?
3-Every example in the preview is referred to primary derv using derv-only skills. How that will interact with others profs ench, weapons and such is still to see.
4-I think that from now to the update relelase, and for some times later it, we'll see hordes of derv coming up where before was very few, as happened to Rits and Mezs last year.

At the beginning of the thread i said "I wont create a new char for use the derv, too lazy". And here i am with a lvl 20 derv running for vabbi....I'm a liar.

Killed u man · Feb 15, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Well, Flash Enchantments do not abide by PvP (there is some PvE) spell rules in that they don't have cast times.

This might exempt them from various skills such as glyph of sacrifice, enabling the stacking of various spells on top of eachother.

Certain already existing builds, for example, require the casting of spells to work, how will these get affected by "insta" cast spells, something previously impossible. This is not some small change, this is a whole new mechanic for PvP that probably will break it in some areas.

In order to see how complicated this issue is, think of every possible way these new skills aren't meant to be used.

For example:

Avatar of Balhazar will be a permanently maintainable avatar that gives you +40 armor and speed boost. (Or whatever) What if the new mysticism somehow supplied enough energy for a derv to carry Monks skills. (Think rof etc)

It wouldn't take too long before people start throwing together skills so that they create a healer with 110 permanent base armor (thus near impossible to kill) with beast energy management.

I'm sure these are the obvious things the TK probably will have in mind and thus balance accordingly, but there is thousands of possible synergies that might create redicilously imbalanced builds. (Such as unkillable healers, rediclious damage dealers, etc) And knowing the TK and their previous updates, we should prepare for the worst.

Reaper of Scythes · Feb 15, 2011, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

snap

For the worst? Why not for the best.

Expherious · Feb 15, 2011, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I think that this update will effetively pickup all the downtime the derv has suffered ^_^

*lemming* · Feb 15, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of Scythes

For the worst? Why not for the best.

Historically, updates designed to "shake things up" by buffing/changing a lot of skills in one shot have been disastrous.

FoxBat · Feb 15, 2011, 10:37 PM // 22:37

In fairness there were just two screwed up skills in the massive mesmer update, mind wrack and crippling anguish. Yeah it sucked, but it was nothing like the earlier assassin and ritualist overhauls that required years of rebalancing. It did make Esurges more common on balanced teams at the time, and did a lot to make the class have presence in low end PvP, so good has come of it. TK's done a lot better than Izzy's solo work.

Painbringer · Feb 15, 2011, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Change makes me play ~ its all good... I am on the fence if I will play the dervish any more than I rarely do now. But what it will do is make me work my other characters in ways to stop the dervish (enchantment removal / skill stoppers power spike etc.. it will be fun)

Ensign · Feb 15, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Historically, updates designed to "shake things up" by buffing/changing a lot of skills in one shot have been disastrous.

A good disaster would be a lot more fun than the status quo!

At least for the moment.

*Makes popcorn waiting for the train to crash*

ensoriki · Feb 15, 2011, 10:57 PM // 22:57

historically big skill updates meant to shake things up have actually made the game more fun, if only temporarily before the issues with the skills are fully utilized.

Killed u man · Feb 15, 2011, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

historically big skill updates meant to shake things up have actually made the game more fun, if only temporarily before the issues with the skills are fully utilized.

I'm fairly sure alot of the "PvP" community left when NF came around, or even EOTN.

If you're talking PvE, sure. The majority of people enjoy overpowered play (I myself do aswell in PvE), hitting 2000 is simply more fun than hitting 200. However, when we're talking about 'breaking the game' and such, we're indirectly referring to PvP.

PvE doesn't need to be balanced, it's brainless buttonbash. Monsters don't care if they die in 1 second or in 10. This, however, doesn't mean there doesn't need to exist some balance tough...

For PvP, every large update made all the competitive players leave, only to get replaced by less and less competitive people. It would be hard for that to happen now, but saying every major update was good for the game is clearly nonsense. Otherwise GW wouldn't be as dead as it is now...

And thus, I'm looking forward to the overpowered play were going to have, yet at the same time am going to watch GW's gameplay get dumbed down again. Atleast that's what I'm expecting/fearing what will happen.

Apok · Feb 16, 2011, 12:07 AM // 00:07

The Mesmer update, which was fairly large in and of itself, didn't cause that much of an outrage. It took a while for a certain spike to get fixed, sure, but that's what happens when you buff damage where damage does not need to be buffed.

They are not buffing the damage on many skills, just changing how they work. It sounds like they are making a bunch of condi-specific flashchants and giving the Dervish it's own versions of Enraging Charge, which isn't all that broken.

novawhiz · Feb 16, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Im not sure why everyone is getting so excited about this....wow so now when i want to do some random dungeon or mission with my derv it might be slightly easier/faster. Dervs were never that broken or bad. If you wanted to use a derv in pve, you could easily make them useful.

What i dont understand is why they did all this work to completely redo this class, and even invent new game mechanics, all just for low end pve titles and stuff. I would much rather they spent all that time making changes to end game pve, or doing a new skill 'balance' cycle.

Update will come and everyone will have fun dicking around for a couple days on their derv alt. Then everyone who never mained derv or was never originally interested in them will move on to w/e they did before the update, and all the derv lover will continue to love dervs. it wont have any 'endgame' pve implications and we will have to wait, but it doesnt look like it will affect pvp too much either (but pvp is dead anyway so who cares.)

so, i dunno. When it comes out, ill hop on derv, explore some new builds, do a couple dungeons for shts and giggles and then after that ill probably never touch derv again.

Cuilan · Feb 16, 2011, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

PvE doesn't need to be balanced, it's brainless buttonbash.

You must not have ever played a mesmer before the mesmer update.

MithranArkanere · Feb 16, 2011, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Well, it's true that I kind of wish they added more attributes instead more professions, making the new primary attributes alternate primaries to the old professions, so you can switch between them, but you can't have them both at the same time. Necromancers with spawning power as alternate primary, warriors with leadership, rangers with critical strikes, monks with mysticism, mesmers with the cronomancer primary, and elementalists with the summoner one.
That kind of stuff.
They would have saved in models, and kept balance with just 6 professions, while adding more possibilities.

But it's not like can change all that now, XD.